arhyalon

Was this 'girl' in fact a grown woman?

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she very much is a grown woman.. "girl" in itself is a racial way to speak about someone when you want to put them down. Agree with her or not, she does not deserve to be talked about in this manner. Not that I need to defend her, but I am her friend, not just on LJ.

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It's a very old tribal instinct for revenge. Doesn't matter the color involved or the creed.
Christianity seems to be the best practical system I've seen for drawing disparate peoples together. The desire for revenge is or should be set aside in the name of God. Yes, yes, there are many counter examples, but that's the way it's supposed to play out and that's the way I've seen it play out.

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I ignore as unworthy of my time your tribal comment.

Frankly, I'm a little offended that you think that pushing your religion on everyone is a good idea. Have you never considered that people might not want a religion, and that those who do might not want yours? (And not to name-check or anything, but, um, Crusades ring a bell? The Inquisition? Any of this sound familiar? Now what were you saying about drawing disparate peoples together?)

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the "girl" you're talking about is an adult. Calling women of color "girl" especially grown women is loaded and incredibly condescending and RACIST. I can see you dont' see color but most other people do and we don't live in a color blind society no matter how much you want to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend this is the case.

I suggest you think about the terms you're using. Very easy to say just don't buy in to prejudice. Not so easy in practice when people grow up with racism spoon fed to them from infancy. Go back and learn more about race relations before you attempt to analyze someone you don't know let alone be on a panel about racial issues; especially if they offend you so much.

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Darlin', don't waste your time. In her other post, her friends are talking about how they discovered they weren't racist because Black folk stole from them. Not. Worth. The. Time.

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"...because aversive racists consciously endorse egalitarian values and deny negative feelings about blacks, they will not discriminate directly and openly in ways that can be attributed to racism. However, because of their negative feelings they will, in fact, discriminate, often unintentionally, when their behavior can be justified on the basis of some factor other than race. Aversive racists may therefore regularly engage in discrimination while they maintain a nonprejudiced self-image. The term “aversive” in this form of racism thus refers to two aspects of this bias. It reflects the nature of the emotions associated with blacks, such as anxiety, that lead to avoidance and social awkwardness rather than to open antagonism. It also represents that, because of their conscious adherence to egalitarian principles, these whites would find any thought that they might be prejudiced to be aversive."

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversive_racism
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/5976/Aversive-Racism.html
http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/Aversive_Racism

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Thank you for providing these links; I have found them informative.

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Hi. I was the moderator.

You will recall that I said at the panel that I thought it important to point out statements based on harmful assumptions, that doing so did not mean that I thought that people were evil people, but that racist attitudes permeate our society.

In that spirit, I was going to engage with your comments (for instance, I dispute your accuracy of at least one thing I said).

However, this post is sufficiently disrespectful that I cannot discuss this topic with you.

Very truly yours,

Kate Nepveu

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You handled this well! I feel like there was no better response. Trying to discuss this with her would have been like speaking another language. She obviously has no idea what she's saying and has no self-awareness of the privilege that allows her to roll her eyes and feign 'color-blindness' and hint a 'reverse-racism'.

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As the "girl" who asked the aforementioned "girl" to take her place on the panel your abject ignorance derailed, I must say that this may be the most thoughtless, offensive dreck I've ever read on LJ. And you should be ashamed of yourself for believing this dribble passes for intelligent thought.

Ninety minutes of schooling from fellow panelists (AND AUDIENCE MEMBERS!) and you didn't learn a fucking thing. Yeah, it's regrettable that you didn't bow out and save us all the grief.

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As the "girl" who asked the aforementioned "girl" to take her place on the panel your abject ignorance derailed ...

You mean that your friend's paranoid overreaction derailed?

Ninety minutes of schooling from fellow panelists (AND AUDIENCE MEMBERS!) and you didn't learn a fucking thing.

Why would you expect her to take your criticisms as "schooling" from an enlightened superior, rather than arguments being put forth by equals? If you approached the debate with the notion that you were her "teachers," no wonder you offended her!

How would you like it if I decided that it was my job to "educate" you? Would you treat me with the deference due from student to teacher?

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It is only white privilege that allows you to pretend you are color blind. I realize that it's nice and convenient to be able to avoid thinking about the color of others' skin; it allows you to ignore what the privilege we enjoy as white women costs others. I'm sure it's awfully inconvenient when people you choose to ignore stand up and demand to be treated like fellow human beings, demand to be allowed in the club, refuse to let the status quo be and refuse to be quiet and take it in the name of "peace and harmony." I'm sure it seems awfully inconvenient, too, when you step on someone's foot and they ask you to move off of it a bit.

It is an exercise of white privilege to continually refer to my friend as a "girl," and I believe you know it. See, I credit you with the dignity and intelligence of a grown human adult. For that reason, I refuse to believe you don't know full well how awful what you've written is, and exactly what you're saying. Therefore, please know that my holding you 100% accountable for your words, here? It's a compliment. Really. I assume people mean what they say, and what you are saying here is ugly, hateful, and deliberately disingenuous and condescending.

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I am really sorry if the term "girl" offended anyone...but I am sure that anyone who normally reads my blog can attest that I call all women "girl", especially myself.

My father was from a much older generation than the fathers of my friends. He called women "girls" and it was a term I found joyful and gentle. I think of him when I use the term, and I use it all the time.

No disrespect was meant.

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You know, Jagi, if you throw in a "Blizz is catering to/punishing casuals!" you could anger the other half of the internet :)

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QQ moar.

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I didn't believe what you said in your previous post about genuinely not noticing race; I've heard these stories before and frankly if you aren't lying than you're the most naiive person I've come across. I also think you won't listen to me, so I didn't speak up.

But for you to call karnythia a girl over and over and over like this? I have to speak up. You owe her an apology. Such language is shocking and dismissive and hateful, as you recite your dewey-eyed speeches about us all getting along.

I've heard these speeches from Nice White Ladies over and over again and I just don't know why you'd be complacent and happy in your hurtful oblivion.

Just in case you think I'm another Scary Angry Brown person, I'm white. Probably whiter than you.

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Far more articulate than I could ever be.


Edited at 2009-08-12 03:25 am (UTC)

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I've been known to call 80 year old white ladies "girls". And anyone who thinks that reverse racism doesn't exist too should talk to my husband who got jumped by 7 guys for no better reason than because he was white and living in a black neighborhood.

And anyone who wants to identify anxiety and social awkwardness by the same word that indicates insulting or assaulting people because of their skin color needs to think some about the consequences of that kind of watering down of the language.

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Reverse racism doesn't exist. It's just racism.

Calling a white lady "girl" when that term wasn't used systematically to belittle her entire race and culture is one thing. Calling a grown POC "boy" or "girl" may, just may, be salting the still-bleeding wounds of past institutionalized injustices, as a mere half a second of thought should help one realize.

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And is her current behavior going to encourage or discourage the kind of life she would prefer to live.

This comment, this whole post, is so condescending and disrespectful. Who are you to judge her life?

I am white. I only know karnythia from reading her on LJ, but I keep reading her because her writing is consistently uplifting and incisive and informative. I feel my mind expand when I read her. She is making the world better with her words and with her work.

I wish you would turn this question back on yourself and think about who and how you are judging so glibly and how your words are affecting people. How many people have to say this language is hurtful before you will consider that you might be hurting people? Why are you hardening your heart against people trying to show you the way? Maybe you could pray on it some more before you type another post where you call a black woman "this girl" over and over.

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I'm not judging her...I asked a question...if the answer is "yes"...then she is in the right! If it is no, she might be harming her interest.

I'd be delighted to hear your thougths on what will help the current atmosphere improve.

I call myself and my mom's friends "girls" no disrespect meant.

Edited at 2009-08-12 02:00 pm (UTC)

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although i know karnythia, i do not know the story involved, but i am willing to guess that you are missing an important point of her story, perhaps involving the racial makeup of inner city chicago?

but i am only guessing.

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I am South Asian. Please stop using my culture as a decoration to your LJ.

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A second South Asian here with a major DITTO'd to that.

I really don't want anyone thinking that someone spouting this racist idiocy is one of us.

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Unbelievable. Tell me, do you call black men "boy," too? This is beyond offensive. I thought at first you were merely ignorant and clueless, but I see now I was mistaken.

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No, but I call myself and my girlfriends and my mom's girlfriends "girls".

No disrespect meant.

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I am so glad i do not live in America!

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Hahaha where do you live?

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She's loud about it...terribly outspoken.

Terribly outspoken, is she, this "extraordinarily Black" (your words also) ADULT WOMAN? And pray tell, exactly who are you to tell her not to be outspoken about a fact that affects her every day?

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Okay...you make a very good point.

As someone who can also be terribly outspoken, I should have known better. My apologies.

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I think you'll find that calling grown up women “girls” has been offensive since, roughly, about the time we reclaimed the word “woman” from being a Bad Word you used about female people who didn’t qualify as “ladies”.

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Perhaps...but why can't we reclaim girl, too?

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The problem with blogs is, short of writing to everyone personally, it's hard to make a comment on a post.

I have been reading each post carefully, editing out the rancor...which does not help get points across.

I think there's a very important point being made that I did miss...not because of any kind of ignorance, but because when the same words are used in slightly different ways, it's very hard to distiguish between them.

But, I thank everyone who came by to put me right and will blog about the insights I've gained tomorrow.

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not because of any kind of ignorance

It *is* ignorance.

Look, it won't kill you to admit that you're ignorant about something. People come from different places in life and we are all ignorant of the truths that others know. If somebody else calls you on it, just admit that you were ignorant and try to do better. Don't pretend that it was some kind of harmless misunderstanding and you're hurt that everyone's yelling at you; if you choose to speak in a public place and use terms that you have been warned by others will come across poorly, you can't claim innocence.

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The correct way to apologize for using a dismissive, racist term is to say "oh, I didn't know it was racist to call a black woman 'girl,' I'm very sorry and I'll never do it again." Not "I come from a different era" or "my Dad came from a different era." A lot of people from a different era think the N word is charming, too - does that make it ok?

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Someone took issue with what I said here, fairly I think, given that we're not acquainted. I should have been less emphatic, and said, "Based on my own mistakes, I have found that an effective way to apologize..." etc.

Edited at 2009-08-12 11:14 pm (UTC)

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She's loud about it...terribly outspoken.

Oh, those awful loud black "girls"...why can't they be nice and genteel like us white ladies and just stop talking about unpleasant things?

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I am also terrible outspoken, as you can tell...there's no need in attributing such qualities to race.

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I just read both these posts.

I don't think there's anything anyone can say that might penetrate such a rich, mindbogglingly complex, world-spanning system of utter plumb-stupid denial as you seem to possess, as shown in these two posts. I don't think there's much anyone can say that would cause one iota of change in your delusions.

I don't think there's anything I can say on that that someone else has not already attempted to tell you.

Oh, except possibly this. On your other post? I saw this:

They never went back down south, but up here…no one cares. And I thought..."Does she live in NY or something, where they believe that racism only occurs down here in the deepest of souths?" No. I see you live in Centerville, VA which I believe is midway between DC and Richmond. Ah, so a Virginian assuming racism only exists, once again, say, here in GA. And then I saw, which was difficult as my eyes were glazing over from the horror, that what you meant by "down south" was...Williamsburg.

Now, see, I spent many of my formative years living in VA. I'm quite familiar with the eastern end of the state. My father's family has lived in VA for over 400 years. My mama's family, now, that's a whole 'nother ballgame, but my dad is from an FFV.

Clearly, there is some kind of Giant Wall somewhere in the 102 miles that separates the two places that is racism-proof. In all of that, I've been totally not aware of this! Why didn't someone tell me?! This...changes *everything*.

Clearly, DC and its environs have become non-racist. That comes as quite a surprise. Of all the places in the US, I'm surprised that NoVa has apparently recently been declared cleansed of bigotry.

Clearly, racism couldn't possibly exist north of Williamsburg, of all places, which is, after all the boundary beyond which no racism goes.

Jeebus, y'all! If we...just ignore it...if we insist it doesn't exist..THERE WILL BE NO RACISM! Just clap your hands if you BELIEVE!!!! TESTIFY!

Ma'am, how on earth do you breathe with your head that far up your own aft end?

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Amen to everything hotcoffeems said. I love how some people try and ignore their own racism b/c they don't live in the South, where all true racism must naturally exist.

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I have read the threads here so I know that people have brought the education to your door. You, through your ignorant behavior, actually spurred intelligent, charming, educated people to BRING THE EDUCATION TO YOU when they could have just shook their heads, walked away, and discussed amongst themselves how yet another ignorant white person was devaluing their humanity right out in public and refusing to hear how ignorant and offensive they are.

Take some time to digest that. Think about how LUCKY you are to actually get the opportunity to grow as a person, to make the changes you so strongly claim you would like to see happen in the world. YOU! have that opportunity because real, discreet, individual human beings chose to help you rather than just walk away. Don't squander that opportunity.

You have a chance to change. Seize it. Make the move from seeing this situation being about you and your hurt feelings and make it about the people who are hurt every day by your ignorance. They aren't faceless, you met some of them in person.

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This was excellently said.

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You'd sound so much more colourblind if you didn't keep talking as if the default skin colour was white. :(

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Her 'current behaviour' is going to encourage the kind of life she would prefer to live because it will cause more reasonable people than you in positions of privilege to consider just how bad racism is, and so cause them to try to improve the world.

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This has been informative. I had no idea that "girl" had become a word of insult. I've always identified myself as a girl. I have girls' night out, go shopping with the girls, and, in October, I'll have a weekend getaway with the girls. We'll leave the boys at home. And if anyone thinks my husband feels threatened by me calling him a boy, they'd be greatly mistaken. Not much threatens him, because he doesn't take offense at unimportant things.

I like my sex. I don't consider being a female as the second best choice, so I don't take offense at being called a girl.

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ETA: Most of this is directed at Arhyalon, not you bojojoti.

1. I am a white Southerner, in case you were afraid that I would be one of those scary "extraordinarily Black" people you're so afraid of.

2. I know exactly WHY this is an offensive term. Let me explain it to you.

It is what white people used to call the black people who worked for them (either as slaves or other low paid servants) for generations. When a white person wanted to call for a black person to come serve them, they said, "Come here, boy!" or "come here, girl!"

They infantilized and oppressed blacks in this way by not even referring to them as ADULTS. They ingrained this belief that blacks were so mentally inferior that they needed to be treated like children. One of the biggest barriers to such things as integrated sports teams was that white people argued that black people were not "intelligent enough" to understand how to play basketball or baseball.

Why do I know this? Because I've seen my grandparents and great-grandparents do this. And it was not charming, gentle, or joyful. It was a term of derision and insult. It was a way in which they made sure that no black person who got around them was allowed to feel respected as an adult.

This is why you do not use that term. Because in doing so, you're aligning yourself with all those people who treated black people like fucking children. You're saying, "I too am not respecting you as a fellow grown up because I consider you mentally inferior"

And judging by the way you speak of karnythia and the posts you've made asserting that what you see and observe must be the sum total of all that is and that you are, apparently, an expert in race that is something that you must ACTUALLY BELIEVE. Because if you had any respect for her as a GROWN UP WOMAN you wouldn't have said any of the things you just said.

Also? Ditto for the above comments. Stop using a completely random picture of a South Asian woman as decoration. Her culture is NOT YOUR FUCKING INTERNET TCHOTCHKE, lady and it is not there just to pretty up your space. It is not a "this is not the racism you are looking for" magical Jedi icon that will make people think you're not racist. And you're further aligning yourself with white people who have gone into Southeast Asia and treated the people there as trophies and exotic fetishes.

Have some goddamn respect.

Edited at 2009-08-13 12:31 pm (UTC)

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