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09:39 am: The Race Question: Who Is Going To Win?

NOTE:  Before reading this post, please read this one. I have changed my position and apologized.

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I am posting this because John asked me to. He said he wanted to read my response to the panel mentioned below.

 

 

Okay…race, when the word applies to human beings, is not about winning—and that is the point of this entry.

 

For World Con, I was put on a diversity panel. I probably should have bowed out. I am against the idea of diversity as a political movement. I didn’t bow out, and I didn’t get to say a great deal, because there were six of us. But I did get to say that my kids go to schools that could be the poster schools for diversity. There are no two kids of the same color sitting next to each other. Because of this, my kids don’t notice race.

 

The moderator of the panel objected to this. She objected to not noticing race. Race, she said, is important. It makes us who we are. We should notice it.

 

 

She said this to me—the person who didn’t notice that one of her friends was Black or that another was Korean (I just thought of him as ‘really cute’) until it was pointed out (unfortunately, in both cases it was pointed out when they told a story about someone being prejudice against them.)

 

Well, I responded to the moderator as follows: I might notice a person’s hair color, but I don’t care about it. Yet, in the days of the Saxons and Normans the rulers were prejudice against blond-haired folk. They would have thought of that as paramount. We don’t think of hair color as defining who we are any more. (Well, unless you are me…but more on that later.) In the future, when we are concerned about other issues, we won’t particularly notice skin color either.

 

Afterward, I explained that I live near DC. A friend from college grew up here. She went to a mainly Black school and married a secret serviceman. It was not until they went to Williamsburg on a sight seeing trip that they realized that she was white, and he was Black. They had never thought about it.  They never went back down south, but up here…no one cares.

 

And, it is true. We have a number of Black and White couples on our road. We used to have a Korean and White couple as well. No one has ever mentioned a word about this. This doesn’t mean that no one ever slights them, but no one at the pool, in the mom’s groups, etc., has ever so much as mentioned the subject in front of me…even in private.

 

So far as I can tell, no one cares.

 

If race is so important, such a part of who we are that we need to track it…do I need to track Irish vs. Italian? They hated each other a few generations past, but my best friends growing up were all Irish/Italians. I’m not sure I could tell the difference.

 

Or how about Japanese and Korean? Those two groups hate each other….with really unabashed hatred. Not like here, where we think we aren’t supposed to hate other people. But most Westerners could not tell the difference between a Korean and a Japanese person on pain of death. Sometimes, they can’t tell either! My sister-in-law passed for Korean when she lived there, so long as she did not open her mouth. The moment she did, and they heard her Japanese accent, their attitude toward her would change dramatically.

 

I tried to ask the question: What does a writer do if they have no experience with diversity? What if they can’t write it well. What about the paradox of “damned if they don’t throw in members of other races/sexes and damned if they can’t do it well?” But this was either snickered at or ignored.

 

The idea, so far as I can tell—and this has bugged me for years—is “everyone has to write diversely and be good at it.”  Discovering that you are not good at it and sticking to what you can do is not acceptable.

 

Our lovely moderator (she was very sweet) declared that she would not read a book with no female characters in it.

 

I found this surprising in a fantasy/science fiction reader. Did this mean she would not read Left Hand of Darkness (a male and a group of neuters) which is lauded by feminists everywhere? Would she read a book about a tree or an alien with three sexes? Or did she just object to historical military or sea pieces being written with any accuracy?

 

One of the qualities that I and my sf/fantasy reading friends have always lauded in ourselves is our ability to associate with any many character and temporarily forget ourselves. When I am reading I am not male/female, White/Black, human/non-human. I am in the story. If the story is good, then it’s worth reading. To artificially require the story to have some superficial quality in order to enjoy it? What experiences you are going to miss!

 

Why am I against diversity as a political movement? I think it hurts more than it helps. I remember when diversity suddenly became popular. St. Johns, which never has very many non-white students, decided to have a dinner for the “students of color” or something.  But up until that point, people had not been particularly aware of their color…interesting origins, such as being from other countries were noted, but they were not necessarily related to skin color.


So what happened? Kids who happened to be darker-skinned were brought together for a special meal, having to leave their friends for a night to artificially associate with a group of people with whom they had only a superficial similarity. And the kids who were not invited felt a bit sad. For the first time, color and race was brought to everyone’s attention as an issue, when it had not existed before.

 

So the meal had the exact oppose effect from its intended goal.

 

I talked about the needs of the story, rather than of a political agenda. Our moderator snickered. She then explained that unless you actually believe in the muses, the ideas come from you, and you are in control.

 

I found this comment extraordinary until she followed it up later in the panal with “I’m not a writer.”

 

Ah!

 

Any writer worth their salt knows better than to mess with the Muses, Man!

They are fickle, and if you don’t listen to them, they don’t always give you a second chance.

 

What happens, you ask, if you don’t listen to them? Easy. Your stuff stinks. Oh, maybe you can muddle through without them, but your story is never nearly as good as it would have been if you had listened.

I should know...I've got hundreds of pages of stuff I had to throw out because I had not listened properly as to which characters should be present in the story.
One I listened, the story finally worked.

And sometimes it's scary. Last story I started, part of a project with friends, the main character, a twelve year old girl named Eve March, announced in her first person letter, that she was a light-skinned Black girl. Totally took me by surprise. My first thought was “I can’t write about a Black girl today, I don’t know enough.” But I dismissed that thought immediately as unworthy…because if the Muses—who were so kind as to give me the entire six page introductory letter in one brief sitting all at once—wanted the girl to be Black…then by golly, I now knew better than to argue with them.

 

So, I’ll do my best. If I listen closely enough, the character will work. If I don’t, she won’t. Sure, it will take thought and research…but I’ve wasted far too many years of my life having to throw out the stuff I wrote when I did not heed the Muses to argue.

 

Are all writers a slave of the Muses? No. Some don’t even hear them. Some can write well on their own. I’m not that lucky.

 

Now, I don’t really believe in Muses…but I do believe in Divine inspiration and that stories are “meant” to be a certain way. I pray before I write, and I try to write what comes to me, in the hope that some Higher purpose might be carried out, regardless of whether I am aware of it or not.

 

But that is neither here nor there.

 

The point is: the moderator had a book called “Why Do All the Black Children Sit Together In the Cafeteria?” or something close to that. Here, in Centreville, VA, they don’t. In fact, it was the “each kid sitting next to each other is a different color” part of the schools that impressed me. And it certainly was not the case in St. John’s, or the kids who got together for the special dinner I mentioned above would have already known each other.

 

My son’s favorite friends from school are a boy the color of pitch whose family is from Africa, a Korean boy, and a Spanish boy whose family hardly speaks English. He doesn’t care. Just recently, after meeting the mother of the Korean boy, hearing her accent, and discovering that she came from another country, he announced to me one day in his normal blunt way, “I didn’t know Joseph was from Korea. He looks just like everyone else.”

 

So, should we notice race? Sure, about as often as we notice other issues, such as where we are from. We all know a few people to whom where they are from is a definite part of their identity. They associate themselves with Texas or New York or something. (Hey, stop looking at me that way! Just because New  York rules…) But for most people, where you are from only comes up once in a while, during a pleasant discussion over tea, or if it become topical in conversation.


Race should be the same way. A thing you notice once it a while, like commenting on someone’s hair or making a comment about your home state. It contributes to your personality and experience, but it need not contribute any more than any other factor that is outside of your control.

Because what I noticed on the panel, from the stories told by those who had been treated badly according to their race, was that they had chosen as their identity not where they lived, but what other people hated them for.

People hate people for a great deal more things than color of skin...and it is up to each of us whether or not we are going to let other people's opinions define us. Let's take an example: a few decades back, there was a brother and sister who were teased mercilessly by their classmates. What were they teased about? It does not matter. The boy took it to heart. He associated himself with the message.  He became mentally ill and still, to this day, blames the children who teased him for his illness.The girl refused to define herself by the opinions of others, with prayer and determination, she put the whole thing behind her.

The boy was my brother. The girl was me. So, I know first hand both the ravages of human cruelty and the fact that we don't need to let it define us...whether it be race, hair color, family background, or any other thing.

 

When you emphasize any quality of human beings other than those over which they have control, there will never be any winners.


Because, really, we are, all of us, brothers and sisters, members of the Holy Family, created in the Image and Likeness of the Creator.


Anything that interferes with our remembering that should get out of the way.


 

Comments

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From:[info]marycatelli
Date:August 11th, 2009 02:28 pm (UTC)

ah, diversity

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A blind and narrow-minded insistence on selected traits being diverse, and a purblind ignoring of all the other multitudinous traits in which we can be diverse.
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From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 11th, 2009 02:49 pm (UTC)

Re: ah, diversity

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Nicely put.
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From:[info]kokorognosis
Date:August 11th, 2009 03:07 pm (UTC)
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I've written about fifteen different replies that failed to articulate what it was that I wanted to articulate, so: "Ditto."

The world will be a better place when we can stop pestering people about their race and just get to know them on the basis of who they are.

I mean, really, who cares? If you come from America, then you're American. If, for instance, you are one of my black coworkers from Kenya or Ghana, then, yeah, there's some cultural difference. But really... it's cultural. Not racial. A social construct, not a physical form.
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From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 11th, 2009 03:43 pm (UTC)
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>But really... it's cultural. Not racial.

Exactly. My Black friend raised by a white family is clearly American and my white friend raised abroad has cultural differences with the rest of us...not important ones, but worth noting so as to avoid misunderstandings.
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From:[info]jordan179
Date:August 11th, 2009 04:08 pm (UTC)
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You hit the nail on the head by pointing out the difference between noticing something and assuming it to be important. I "notice" the fact that my last name, "Bassior," begins with the same letter of the alphabet as "Brin," "Baxter" and "Bradbury," but is far away in the alphabet from "Williamson" and "Wright." But I don't base my science fictional reading preferences upon this. Why should I base it upon skin tone?

I tried to ask the question: What does a writer do if they have no experience with diversity? What if they can’t write it well. What about the paradox of “damned if they don’t throw in members of other races/sexes and damned if they can’t do it well?” But this was either snickered at or ignored.

The idea, so far as I can tell—and this has bugged me for years—is “everyone has to write diversely and be good at it.” Discovering that you are not good at it and sticking to what you can do is not acceptable.


And this implies limiting what settings you can write. Were Jane Austen or P. G. Wodehouse bad writers because they wrote mostly about upper to upper-middle class English people? Were Arthur C. Clarke or E. E. "Doc" Smith bad because they mostly wrote about either WASP's or people in futures so far from ours that modern-day racial distinctions no longer existed?

Our lovely moderator (she was very sweet) declared that she would not read a book with no female characters in it.

I found this surprising in a fantasy/science fiction reader. Did this mean she would not read Left Hand of Darkness (a male and a group of neuters) which is lauded by feminists everywhere? Would she read a book about a tree or an alien with three sexes? Or did she just object to historical military or sea pieces being written with any accuracy?


Less fantastically, even the thing she's really objecting to limits her knowledge of science fiction. H. P. Lovecraft and John W. Campbell, to name two early sf greats, wrote numerous stories with no female characters in them, among them "At the Mountains of Madness," "Who Goes There," "Forgetfulness" and "The Dunwich Horror," which are each seminal to whole genres of horror and science fiction. (They're also great tales).

I talked about the needs of the story, rather than of a political agenda. Our moderator snickered. She then explained that unless you actually believe in the muses, the ideas come from you, and you are in control.

I found this comment extraordinary until she followed it up later in the panel with “I’m not a writer.”


Ah. She doesn't get the importance of subconscious inspiration (upon which the Ancients based the Muses) to writing.








[User Picture]
From:[info]marycatelli
Date:August 11th, 2009 04:37 pm (UTC)
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I once read a person touting diversity and countering reasons why not. One of the reasons began, "I don't want to -- " and the counter, "I'm sure you can."
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From:[info]juliet_winters
Date:August 11th, 2009 05:28 pm (UTC)
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Jagi, to put it kindly these people are idiots.
Color-blindness was what I thought they were seeking in the 60s/70s. Why be so determined to be unnaturally separatist? If you are naturally colorblind, they should be cheering you on not seeing the wrong in it.

The only reason I can think of to artificially accentuate differences, particularly beyond your immediate sphere of influence, is for monetary and political gain.

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From:[info]sparkymonster
Date:August 12th, 2009 02:39 am (UTC)
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Color-blindness was what I thought they were seeking in the 60s/70s. Why be so determined to be unnaturally separatist?

Who do you think was seeking this? Is it possible that different people had different goals?

You may want to read this article: Color Blind or Just Plain Blind?" A helpful quote: "many liberal white people will not publicly and consciously express bias against blacks, but, because they have unconscious negative feelings about blacks, they will discriminate in subtle ways. This subtle and unconscious bias is what we mean when we refer to aversive racism."

You may also like this post
Why writing colorblind is writing white.

I also strongly suggest this post on what privilege is.
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From:[info]cdenmier
Date:August 11th, 2009 05:31 pm (UTC)

Divine inspiration

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When I got to the part in your reflection about the Muses, I started thinking "this is how I am more and more trying to let myself write, except I call it Providence."

I was thrilled when you said the same. I'm guessing most people think it sounds arrogant to say that God -- the holy God, the mighty One, the immortal One -- would help anybody write a novel. More arrogant, it seems, and far less interesting, to claim your writing as simply your own. How happy must it make the Creator to help his children to sub-create worlds?

I for one am glad the Muses are real, that they have a Name, that those blessed times when you write things down and it seems like more than you own effort are not just instances of luck. Thank you for saying as much -- it needs to be said!

Oh, and I like your thoughts on race as well. Right on.
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From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 11th, 2009 06:05 pm (UTC)

Re: Divine inspiration

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You and I are on exactly the same page. ;-)
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From:[info]bojojoti
Date:August 11th, 2009 07:11 pm (UTC)
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Well said.

And when literature all becomes the same formulaic politically-correct pap, I'll stop reading.
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From:[info]headnoises
Date:August 11th, 2009 07:53 pm (UTC)
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Just like TV....
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From:[info]ithildyn
Date:August 11th, 2009 07:32 pm (UTC)
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I love your thoughts on the Muses. That is so exactly it! Yes!

As for the rest, agreed. I was brought up in the 60/70s where the ideal was to ignore race, and now they're saying that's wrong. You really do feel damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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From:[info]headnoises
Date:August 11th, 2009 07:53 pm (UTC)
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*eyeroll* No wonder so much of the new sci-fi sucks.

You want to know what the "geek" view of skin color is?

It's my geek group from the Navy hanging out in the classroom at one in the morning, singing "White and Nerdy". Less than half of the group would qualify as "white". What mattered is that we were all *geeks*-- biggest prejudice was me being a girl, and that was only one or two guys-- most agreed that I "didn't count" as a girl. ;^p

Who the frell let all these muck-rakers in? I want my sci fi back!
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From:[info]marycatelli
Date:August 12th, 2009 12:58 am (UTC)
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My -- junior year I think it was. In February, we were playing D&D and splitting up the party. (I know, I know.) But someone trying to persuade me said I would be the only woman in that group if I went with the other one. I pointed out that I couldn't escape, being the only woman in the group.

No one had noticed before. No one noticed after.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
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From:[info]headnoises
Date:August 11th, 2009 07:58 pm (UTC)
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A thought-- how many of these folks play RPGs, do you suppose?

I'm notorious for being quiet in RPGs until I get to "know" who my character "is."

I'm also starting to realize where the horrific slaughter of D&D is coming from... who cares if you're black, white or purple, what matters is are you an elf, dragon or human....
[User Picture]
From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 11th, 2009 08:48 pm (UTC)
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Ah, so well put!
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From:[info]kalquessa
Date:August 11th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
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I don't think I have anything useful at all to add to this, so I just wanted to say: YES. THIS. THANK YOU.
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From:[info]noveldevice
Date:August 12th, 2009 12:32 am (UTC)
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Or you could notice and appreciate your friends' races without demanding that they act white so you feel comfortable ignoring their skin colour.

The problem with trying to act colour-blind isn't the colour, it's the blind. Try opening your eyes.
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From:[info]marycatelli
Date:August 12th, 2009 01:00 am (UTC)

Try opening your eyes.

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How do you appreciate "your friends' races"?

What is "demanding they act white"?

For that matter, how do you appreciate the different hair colors of different people?
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[User Picture]
From:[info]carbonelle
Date:August 12th, 2009 12:59 am (UTC)
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I'd be very interested to read what your response to this writer's post: http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/08/10/guest-blogger-neesha-meminger/
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From:[info]marycatelli
Date:August 12th, 2009 01:13 am (UTC)
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The chunk I noticed is


This also addresses (another of my pet peeves,) the “reverse” discrimination argument; an argument that doesn’t take into consideration the fact that oppression is about power imbalance—not just name-calling and hurt feelings.

In the case of a parent-child relationship, when a parent smacks a child with all his might, the effect is far different than when a child smacks a parent with all her might. The latter is not “reverse” abuse


Right. Leaving aside that she's claiming that a fifteen-year-old son hitting his mother as hard as he can is not abuse, let us note that she is claiming that every white has power over every black as a parent over a child.
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From:[info]karjack
Date:August 12th, 2009 01:50 am (UTC)
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Colorblind isn't something to aspire to. It's an affirmation of the white privilege you've been steeped in all your life.

Because, really, we are, all of us, brothers and sisters, members of the Holy Family, created in the Image and Likeness of the Creator.

If we're all one holy family, why do you refuse to listen to your brothers and sisters when they say your ignorance is hurting them?
[User Picture]
From:[info]annafirtree
Date:August 12th, 2009 04:44 am (UTC)
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I ask this sincerely... why is colorblind not something to aspire to?

I can see how someone could appeal to colorblindness as a way to get out of their responsibility for ending racism. But that just means they are hypocrites - calling for colorblindness in one way when they don't want to live up to its demands in other ways. Isn't true colorblindness still the ideal?
... - (Anonymous) Expand
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From:[info]reanimated
Date:August 12th, 2009 02:46 am (UTC)
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also, 'it's true because OOH RELIGION! HOLY!' does not a rational, coherent argument make. here's a point for you. pretending to ignore race is the view of a spoiled white girl. you don't have to have people noticing your race every day of your life, and making actual decisions that may affect you due to it. just the way many blind, privileged males don't seem to get the reality of living while female, you quite clearly don't get the concept of living while not white. stop while you're....oh never mind. a little late for that.
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From:[info]jordan179
Date:August 13th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
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pretending to ignore race is the view of a spoiled white girl.

What makes you think she's "pretending?"

you don't have to have people noticing your race every day of your life, and making actual decisions that may affect you due to it.

Oh, you believe that nobody is prejudiced against white people?

[User Picture]
From:[info]sparkymonster
Date:August 12th, 2009 03:03 am (UTC)
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He became mentally ill and still, to this day, blames the children who teased him for his illness.The girl refused to define herself by the opinions of others, with prayer and determination, she put the whole thing behind her.

The boy was my brother. The girl was me. So, I know first hand both the ravages of human cruelty and the fact that we don't need to let it define us...whether it be race, hair color, family background, or any other thing.


Why are you blaming your brother for his mental illness?
[User Picture]
From:[info]thecolourclear
Date:August 13th, 2009 04:12 am (UTC)
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THANK YOU. As someone who suffers from a mental illness, and is blamed by her father for it, comments like that get under my skin.

I also think it's disgusting to basically say 'I prayed hard enough, so I didn't get sick either.'

Living in a world where you interpret things differently than you should is scary, and frighting, and dealing with it is exhausting. For me, at least. For some it's a lot easier, and it's not so scary. And yes, I 'blame' my parents for a lot of what happened. My sister had the same childhood that I did, but she's not sick. Did I define myself by the opinions and actions of my parents? No more than she did. Or, did the opinions and actions of my parents make me far more vulnerable to the imbalances that already existed in my head? She (and the OP) are lucky- they didn't have those imbalances to begin with.

A lot of people I know today define me by my heart, by my courage, and by my fidelity in friendship. If I defined myself by others (taking the OPs suggestion as truth), shouldn't I no longer have this mental illness?

I just ... argh! Ok, this was TL;DR, I'm sorry. Basically, thank you for saying this.
[User Picture]
From:[info]headnoises
Date:August 12th, 2009 03:31 am (UTC)
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No idea who put out the racist troll beacon, Ma'am, but if it makes you feel any better-- they do themselves no favors.
[User Picture]
From:[info]qweerdo
Date:August 12th, 2009 03:35 am (UTC)
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You have so much to learn about racism. I suggest you look past the dictionary for more relevant definitions.

Edited at 2009-08-12 03:35 am (UTC)
From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 12th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC)
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Good luck. It's nice to hear that the ideal of colorblindness had got so far into practice -- before the current race-baiting started. Maybe these kids will weather the flap and keep their colorblind instincts.
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From:[info]jeliza
Date:August 12th, 2009 05:11 am (UTC)
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You have quite thoroughly convinced me... not to buy your book. Which I had been planning to buy on my next paycheck because I love The Tempest. But I really just can't knowingly fund this level of blind hatefulness.

You seriously are equating teasing, even at the level of verbal abuse, with the systematic oppression that happens *in the real world* (though apparently not in your alternate reality race-blind District of Columbia) as a result of racism and prejudice?

I can state devoutly all I want that I don't want to be defined by my race/family background/whatever, but that is not going to change either the advantages afforded me by my skin color and class or the disadvantages of my gender and sexual orientation. Wide-eyed protestations that people shouldn't notice these things didn't ever stop the folks I encountered who wanted to play "beat up the dyke."
[User Picture]
From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 12th, 2009 01:16 pm (UTC)
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If you were me, with my interacial group of friends and my kids interacial schools...what would you do differently?
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
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From:[info]fightingwords
Date:August 12th, 2009 07:46 am (UTC)
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To quote a poet friend of mine, [info]dahled, who is biracial (his father is black, his mother white):

If you claim to be colorblind
And I just so happen to be a person of color,
Then I have no choice but to conclude that
You don't see me.

You might want to think about that and what it means.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 13th, 2009 09:45 pm (UTC)
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Ah. So because you are Person of Color anyone that sees past your color removes your Personhood?

You might want to think about that.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
[User Picture]
From:[info]sparkymonster
Date:August 12th, 2009 02:08 pm (UTC)
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FYI, Ursula K. Le Guin on "The Wizard of Earthsea" being white washed by the Sci Fi Channel.

http://www.slate.com/id/2111107/
race, which had been a crucial element, had been cut out of my stories. In the miniseries, Danny Glover is the only man of color among the main characters (although there are a few others among the spear-carriers). A far cry from the Earthsea I envisioned.
...
Most of the characters in my fantasy and far-future science fiction books are not white. They're mixed; they're rainbow. In my first big science fiction novel, The Left Hand of Darkness, the only person from Earth is a black man, and everybody else in the book is Inuit (or Tibetan) brown. In the two fantasy novels the miniseries is "based on," everybody is brown or copper-red or black, except the Kargish people in the East and their descendants in the Archipelago, who are white, with fair or dark hair. The central character Tenar, a Karg, is a white brunette. Ged, an Archipelagan, is red-brown. His friend, Vetch, is black. In the miniseries, Tenar is played by Smallville's Kristin Kreuk, the only person in the miniseries who looks at all Asian. Ged and Vetch are white.

My color scheme was conscious and deliberate from the start. I didn't see why everybody in science fiction had to be a honky named Bob or Joe or Bill. I didn't see why everybody in heroic fantasy had to be white (and why all the leading women had "violet eyes"). It didn't even make sense. Whites are a minority on Earth now—why wouldn't they still be either a minority, or just swallowed up in the larger colored gene pool, in the future?


Whites of course have the privilege of not caring, of being "colorblind." Nobody else does.

http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Index-EarthseaMiniseries.html
[User Picture]
From:[info]juliet_winters
Date:August 12th, 2009 02:27 pm (UTC)
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I deliberately skipped that miniseries when it looked as though it had been Disneyfied.

Not sure if you were aware but the K. in her name is for Kroeber. Her father was the famous anthropologist whose involvement with "Ishi in Two Worlds" was not without controversy in the backward glance of moderns.

The non-fiction book, written by his wife/Ursula's mother, is well worth reading. Ursula K. Le Guin was probably better qualified and more inspired than many to include multicultural aspects in her work.

[User Picture]
From:[info]alexandraerin
Date:August 12th, 2009 03:04 pm (UTC)
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So, to sum up:

1. Asians all look the same.
2. Celebrating diversity is bad because it makes white kids sad.
3. Mental illness is a result of weak people choosing not to get over it.

That about the shape of it?

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From:[info]zia_narratora
Date:August 12th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC)
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You forgot "I have no control over what I write, don't blame me, LOL!"
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From:[info]subrosasum
Date:August 12th, 2009 04:01 pm (UTC)
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A lot of what you're saying reminds me of my own staunchly held opinions. I used to be really into being colorblind and being not racist. I went to school with kids of all races, and I was friendly to everybody without even noticing their color. It was great--I got to have all kinds of friends and, when hate crimes showed up on the news, inwardly congratulate myself for not being racist and not seeing skin color.

This continued until I went online with this attitude and a person of color said, "Your attitude is harmful, and is hurting people of color."

I took her word for it, and looked at my own attitudes. I researched and read about racism and privilege. And it was UNCOMFORTABLE to let go of that nice warm fuzzy feeling I got from living in a world where everyone had the same experiences and racism didn't exist because I didn't see it. It was uncomfortable, and a little humbling.

But NECESSARY. It is NECESSARY to understand, clear-eyed and humbly, the world in which we live, and the intersecting inequalities and prejudices that are woven into our day-to-day experiences. Those can't be pretended away no matter how lovely it makes the world seem.

Please try it yourself. I know how uncomfortable it is. But when people say "You are hurting me." the correct response isn't "No I'm not." I don't know what your Creator asks of you, but mine asks me to be humble and to shut the fuck up and listen when someone is talking about experiences I can't possibly understand. And try to learn.
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From:[info]arhyalon
Date:August 12th, 2009 04:10 pm (UTC)
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This point is what the ladies on the panel were saying...but I did not see it until I read the posts here, because the very same phrases can be used to say almost the oposite message...that races should not get along.

Allowing people to enjoy their race and not being prejudice is a wonderful idea and a step forward from merely not seeing race.

So, thank you to everyone who posted here.
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From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 12th, 2009 05:59 pm (UTC)
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Say, you have two friends. One has brown hair, the other has red hair. You treat them pretty much the same.

You're not blind to their hair color. It just isn't something that comes up a lot for you, but you of course realize that their hair color is different.



Skin color is not magically different, you're of course noticing it. You may pretend to yourself you don't, but in reality you of course do. The only difference is that as a white person, you don't run into trouble due to your skin color.

Non-white people? do. A non-white person has no choice in the matter - they can try as much to "not let their skin color define them".

This does not protect them from bullets.

A gay person can try a lot to not be "defined by being gay".

Doesn't stop some angry men beating him to death.

This is how the real world works. Pretending it doesn't doesn't make you color blind - it makes you ignorant.
From:(Anonymous)
Date:August 13th, 2009 04:21 am (UTC)
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Also, should the brown haired friend want, she can be ginger too! Black people can't choose to be not black. An Indian woman cannot decide she'd rather be white and be white. A Chinese businessman cannot fly to Boston and be a white business man. All however, can choose to be ginger, should they please.

Or, they could be like me, and change the colour of my hair every six weeks.

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From:[info]agilebrit
Date:August 12th, 2009 08:34 pm (UTC)
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I saw a link to this post on a comm (which will remain unnamed unless you'd like the link), read it, and thought, yes, THIS. And then I saw all the wank and I'm suddenly confused over the issue of whether I'm supposed to treat people differently based on the color of their skin or not. I always thought not, but apparently if I don't I'm "wallowing in my privilege" or something. I don't even know.

And then I realized that you're John's wife, and for some reason I hadn't visited your LJ before, and now that I have I just had to friend you. :)
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From:[info]dharma_slut
Date:August 12th, 2009 08:57 pm (UTC)
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Well, I think you need to remember that your friends who are not white HAVE been treated differently outside of their intimate friendships.

That means that some assumptions about normal day-to-day interactions on the street, about humor perhaps, about what's safe... aren't going to be the same for them as they are for you.

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From:[info]onelittlesleep
Date:August 12th, 2009 08:44 pm (UTC)
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SEE, you get the play with the idea of color-blindness and say stuff like Race should be the same way. A thing you notice once it a while, like commenting on someone’s hair or making a comment about your home state. because you're white. You do not have your race or color thrown in your face every single day of your life. The majority of culture around you is white-centric and makes you comfortable. Most of the people on tv are white and have white-issues and white-thoughts and reflect your own white-existence. It's easy to be colorblind when you're not actively discriminated against, distrusted, judged, ignored daily because of your color or race.

ETA: Also, my problem with your post is that you seem to want to chastise people for making a 'stink' about race and wanting to talk about it. Well, people make a stink about it because we are not post-racial (like you seem to think you are or...New York is??), there are grave inequalities that people have to deal with all the time and your post reads like some white woman going "Jeez, stop ruining my comfortable colorblindness with your wanting everyone to be aware of the daily disadvantages and inequalities you suffer through. It's such a downer."

This is Peggy McIntosh's "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack": http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

I urge you, please please please read it. I have never read something as clear and precise about the experience of white privilege. I learned so much from it.


Edited at 2009-08-12 08:51 pm (UTC)
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From:[info]jordan179
Date:August 13th, 2009 03:15 am (UTC)
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Most of the people on tv are white and have white-issues and white-thoughts and reflect your own white-existence.

So blacks are aliens with a different culture and psychology, and in fact dwell in a different reality?

Do you speak Jive?
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